New Sherwood

Radio Poland: “Church in Poland set for schism”

AbpHoserPoland

Since the Synod last October, there have been numerous reports indicating the extreme concern and dissatisfaction of the Polish hierarchy with the direction of the Church under Pope Francis. The latest report from Radio Poland uses the strongest language I have seen to date:

“Pope Francis is openly departing from the teaching of the ‘Polish pope’, Zdort wrote in daily Rzeczpospolita on Friday.

Pope Francis may be be seeking the establishment of a new religion, distinct from Catholicism since John Paul II’s teaching was without a doubt within the Catholic tradition, Zdort wrote.

The traditionalist writer sees the potential for a schism, as ‘never before has such a large (and growing) group of hierarchs been openly against the incumbent pope’s chief contribution to ideas.’ As examples of opposition figures, Zdort names Cardinal Raymond Leo Burke and the archbishop of Warsaw, Henryk Hoser.

In Pope Francis’s overtures to divorcees or gays, the Church has ‘betrayed John Paul II,’ Zdort quotes Archbishop Hoser as saying.”

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March 2, 2015 - Posted by | Pope Francis, The Catholic Crisis

22 Comments »

  1. The wheat is about to be thrown into the wind; the chaff is about to be blown away. And God help the wheat when it falls back to earth…

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Dave Heath | March 2, 2015 | Reply

    • “Sing to the Lord, all the earth. Let no one separate; let no one cut himself off. You are the wheat; bear with the chaff until it is winnowed away. Do you want to be driven from the threshing floor[?] Although you are wheat, once outside, the birds of the air shall find you and gobble you up. What is more, that you should leave and fly away is proof that you were but chaff: and because you were without weight, when the wind blew, you were carried off from under the feet of the oxen. But they who are wheat, bear with the treading out. They are happy because they are grain; they grieve amidst the chaff, they wait for Him Whose fan is in His hand, Whom they know is their Redeemer.”

      ~ St. Augustine, Sermons of the Fathers Vol. 4, p. 531 [Enarrationes in Psalmos, Ps. cxlix, 3.].

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Codgitator (Cadgertator) | March 3, 2015 | Reply

    • The ones who are separating themselves from Rome which is really representing the true Church, is antipope Francis and all those who are following his lead because he is not being true to the dogmatic and authentic teachings of the C.C. It should be quite clear Bergoglio is misleading the flock and we as faithful catholics should not follow him or his teachings that contradict what the Church has taught for thousands of years and disregard him as an authentic pope. We are not obliged to obey a heretical pope.

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      Comment by Gaby | March 6, 2015 | Reply

  2. Suppose the Kaspar plan goes into effect (admitting the divorced and remarried to Communion), and the bishops of certain countries, like Poland, decide not to obey the new ‘pastoral’ guidelines. Is this schism?

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    Comment by William Luse | March 2, 2015 | Reply

    • Not in my opinion, Bill. Mere disobedience is not schism. The language of schism is premature in this case. But let’s say that push came to shove, the Vatican suspended or excommunicated the Polish hierarchy for disobedience, and the Polish hierarchy continued to operate anyway. Would *that* be schism? I still don’t think so, but I could be wrong. The thing that makes it confusing is that the Polish hierarchy would presumably still be claiming jurisdiction. Contrast this with the SSPX, which makes no claims of canonical jurisdiction precisely to avoid the appearance of schism.

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      Comment by Blogmaster | March 2, 2015 | Reply

      • Dear Blogmaster. The SSPX does claim Jurisdiction

        http://archives.sspx.org/miscellaneous/supplied_jurisdiction/supplied_jurisdiction.htm

        Like

        Comment by bornacatholic | March 5, 2015

      • Bornacatholic: The SSPX differentiates between ordinary jurisdiction and the supplied jurisdiction necessary in a crisis. Yes, they do claim the latter – but they affirm that the duly appointed diocesan bishops retain ordinary jurisdiction. And it’s not just talk, either. For example, when a man becomes a priest with the SSPX, he registers his ordination with his local diocesan parish.

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        Comment by Blogmaster | March 5, 2015

  3. After the Synod, we might see Pope Francis attempt to split the difference: every bishops’ conference will be permitted to set its own policy on communion for those persisting in adulterous or “irregular” unions. That way the Poles are appeased, the Germans are appeased, and the United States can continue to occupy the mushy middle ground.

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    Comment by Blogmaster | March 2, 2015 | Reply

    • wow. That would be scary. The Church would be made up of independent entities who must ascribe to a subset of rules, which progressively dwindle until there is little if any overarching set of guidelines. I think that is what happened to the Lutherans. Now how many protestant groups are there?

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      Comment by Proteios | March 2, 2015 | Reply

    • Jeff, you should dub this idea that you conjecture Pope Francis may decide to go with the “Jefferson Davis position” on communion for divorced and remarried. (Just give me a hat tip if you decide to adopt it.) :-)

      I realize this must sound like gallows humor, though.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Lydia | March 3, 2015 | Reply

    • That probably tracks with the Pope’s desire to give doctrinal authority to the bishops’ conferences. It would still be an assault on indissolubility–putatively “limited” to those nations which adopt it. And it would act as a solvent on Catholic unity. What is sinful in Poland is not sinful in Germany? Which means it’s also nonsense, and offends reason.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by drprice2 | March 5, 2015 | Reply

  4. So my feelings as a Protestant that this pope isn’t quite kosher are apparently right, at least according to the Polish. That’s unfortunate. I’ve enjoyed the past two popes for their courage, conviction, and how boldly they explained their faith. At best this one seems to be a leaf blown hither and thither in whatever direction the news media happens to be puffing on a particular day.

    Sad. One mark of a truly intelligent spokesman is that he doesn’t give reporters stories they want to cover. Rather than report something they dislike, they report nothing. That’s why it’s a bad sign that this pope in the news so often.

    And yes, I felt odd referring to a pope using the Jewish term kosher, but orthodox seemed a bit strong. This pope’s problem, if I understand him correctly, isn’t with Catholic dogma as much as it is with Catholic practice. Kosher fits that much better. Think of a rabbi dropping hints that there’s nothing really wrong with having a ham sandwich from time to time.

    If history is any guide, ham sandwiches or their equivalent is a step people take down a path that almost inevitably ends in them abandoning their faith altogether.

    –Michael W. Perry, editor of Eugenics and Other Evils by G. K. Chesterton

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    Comment by Michael W. Perry | March 2, 2015 | Reply

    • “This pope’s problem, if I understand him correctly, isn’t with Catholic dogma as much as it is with Catholic practice.”

      I would put it this way: Pope Francis only has a problem with Catholic dogma to the extent that it influences Catholic practice. He’s content to leave Catholic dogma alone as long as it doesn’t interfere with everyday life.

      Liked by 1 person

      Comment by Blogmaster | March 2, 2015 | Reply

      • That’s precisely how I was going to respond to that line, Jeff.

        As he said under another guise, for his number is legion:

        “My religion defines who I am. And I’ve been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. … With regard to [dogmas], I accept my church’s position that [X]. That’s the church’s judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and–I just refuse to impose that on others.”

        Liked by 2 people

        Comment by Codgitator (Cadgertator) | March 3, 2015

  5. Consider Our Lady’s warning that in the Last Days, cardinal would be pitted against cardinal, bishop against bishop.

    May God have mercy on the modernist church.

    Like

    Comment by Suzette M, Murphy | March 2, 2015 | Reply

  6. “I had another vision of the great tribulation. It seems to me that a concession was demanded from the clergy which could not be granted. I saw many older priests, especially one, who wept bitterly. A few younger ones were also weeping. But others, and the lukewarm among them, readily did what was demanded. It was as if people were splitting into two camps.”

    Bl. Anne Catherine Emmerich, April 12, 1820

    Liked by 2 people

    Comment by Brian | March 2, 2015 | Reply

  7. Pope Francis prophecised that he would resign during his tenure. I wish him good health and an early retirement

    Liked by 1 person

    Comment by Brendan Greally | March 3, 2015 | Reply

  8. Do you know what always amuses me, is how the Poles always defend JPII. I exhort you to read the 4 books by Fr. Dohrmann and see just how truly Catholic JPII’s thinking really was.
    It is frightening. Part of what we have to day is consequential because of the previous Popes from Vatican II era and the example that they set.

    Like

    Comment by Stephen Poverello | March 3, 2015 | Reply

  9. As many others have said, resisting a wayward cleric is not schism. Absolute obedience is owed to God and truth, and when shepherds become wolves, we are right not only to disobey them, but to call them to repentance. There is precedent since every major crisis in the Church originated with priest and bishops (from Judas through Luther and now with the modernists).

    Like

    Comment by jeffcassman | March 3, 2015 | Reply

  10. Its even more interesting that right next door, the Germans are talking about schism as well, and they aren’t even willing to wait until they get their way. That story is here: http://www.catholiconnection.com/2015/02/german-church-president-marx-not-branch-rome-will-not-synod-tell-us.html

    Like

    Comment by Jon Haines | March 5, 2015 | Reply

  11. I do not think that the Vatican will put out official, definitive teaching that defies Catholic doctrine. Nor that the Vatican will formally and explicitly approve such things a divorced and remarried Catholics receiving Communion. As a result, I don’t think that Poland’s bishops will be forced into the position of deciding to be formal “schismatics in order to remain faithful to the Church.”

    But that’s not all the danger. Much more probable, I think, is the prospect that the official result of the Synod is either a few vague, amorphous standards that cannot even be called rules, which “allow” the national conferences to particularize rules that really are offensive to Church doctrine any way they decide; or a set of topsy-turvy contradictory platitudes and “goals” and “action points” and what-not that make it virtually impossible for good prelates to bolster proper rules with “because the Vatican said”. As a third alternative, the Synod fathers and power-brokers of the Vatican might go the “Spirit of Vatican II” route and simply ignore the documents altogether and just CLAIM their new rules are what was taught when they weren’t. Any of these will still make it very hard on Catholics to follow the Church in those places where the bishop is unwilling to make a stand.

    Like

    Comment by Tony | March 10, 2015 | Reply

    • I dunno. I find it hard to believe that the progs will settle for fudge. They’re too close now, and they want an official “blessing” undercutting Catholic moral theology on marriage. Because, from that, they can start the avalanche on the rest of moral theology. If you can–however sotto voce–tell Jesus Himself to pound sand when He contradicts you directly, trashing the rest of it is a piece of cake.

      No–they’ll get something definitive which will leave orthodoxy as an option. But as the late Fr. Neuhaus wisely pointed out “when orthodoxy is made optional, it is soon prohibited.”

      Like

      Comment by drprice2 | March 11, 2015 | Reply


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